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Return to Week 4 portal

Connected to TAPPED IN on Mon Feb 10 01:54:38 2003 PST.

VanceS looks catherder_cop.

VanceS teleports to the reception.

Stopped recording in VanceS's Office (#12249) at Mon Feb 10 01:55:30 2003 PST.

Started recording in Reception (#268)[TappedIn] at Mon Feb 10 01:55:30 2003 PST.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Hi Rif"

VanceS [catherder_cop] looks closely at rif [guest].

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Funny, this appears to be a mannequin or something ..."

VanceS [catherder_cop] notes the passage of time ....

rif [guest] says, "hi vance"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Hi Rif"

ChristopherMJ has connected.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Chris is on his way"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "good thing I started CPR when I did"

ChristopherMJ exclaims, "He's here!"

ChristopherMJ says, "Hi Rif (already greeted Vance in Yahoo, but will also say hi, too)"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "looks like we're hanging out in reception"

ChristopherMJ says, "Sus is here"

ChristopherMJ says, "She's coming"

SRI_93 has connected.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "perfect opportunity to set strategy for the week"

ChristopherMJ CoP guy

SRI_93 [guest] says, "Hi Chris"

ChristopherMJ says, "I was just thinking that, Vance"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "Is that Sus?"

ChristopherMJ says, "Hi"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "That is me.."

ChristopherMJ asks, "yes, is that Sus?"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "Rif"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "how did you know it was Sus?"

SusanneN has arrived.

DiaLog follows SusanneN to here.

TimeLog follows SusanneN to here.

SRI_93 [guest] says, "My connection kicked me out I reconnected"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "mystery"

ChristopherMJ asks, "Sus, are you in twice?"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "It said rif is in use"

SusanneN waves hello!

SRI_93 [guest] says, "Hi susanne"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "oh, it's Rif"

SusanneN asks, "Me, no?"

ChristopherMJ exclaims, "Hi Sus!"

SusanneN says, "I'm just me and nobody else"

VanceS [catherder_cop] checks to see who's really here: rif [guest],

ChristopherMJ, SRI_93 [guest], and SusanneN.

ChristopherMJ says, "oh, I see, sorry for calling you Sus, Rif (SRI_93 a little criptic)"

SRI_93 [guest] asks, "What does it say I am here?"

VennyS has arrived.

Parrot follows VennyS to here.

VennyS [:)] bows to rif [guest], VanceS [catherder_cop], ChristopherMJ,

SRI_93 [guest], and SusanneN.

SusanneN says, "only BJ and a few others have a double identity"

ChristopherMJ exclaims, "Hi Venny!"

VennyS [:)] waves to ChristopherMJ.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Hi Venny ... maybe 'rif' timed out"

ChristopherMJ happy as single identity

SusanneN asks, "Smiles to #93, who are you?"

ChristopherMJ says, "93 is Rif"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "We think 93 is Rif"

SusanneN says, "BUt I do see rif_guest, too"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "we're not sure who 'rif' is"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "It said Rif is in use, so I guess I am ^93"

SusanneN riffs

SRI_93 [guest] says, "who"

ChristopherMJ says, "This is a bit like Abbott & Costello (Who's on First - an American thing)"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "emote waves"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "oh well, so for our session, I need to finalize the portal"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "shall I project it?"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "I am using GmUd.. a little bit weird to me"

ChristopherMJ says, "PLease do, Vance"

SRI_93 [guest] says, "yes Vance, please"

VennyS [to VanceS]: "I used window 2000 to connect Wimba and worked well"

SusanneN says, "Yes, you msut have some feeling for the absurdities in life to enjoy online community multiloging"

VanceS [to VennyS]: "interesting - at work we're on W2K too"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, we can hammer down the plan a bit more"

SusanneN asks, "Are we waiting for someone, mr Godot or whoever?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] projects the URL:

http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/tesol/baltimore2003/week4.html

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "this is what's up there now"

ChristopherMJ [to Susanne]: "only if some guests arrive with questions"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Venny can help us plan"

ChristopherMJ says, "but it's the four team members now (plus Venny, who is welcome)"

VanceS [to Chris]: "there's an image not linking from http://sites.inka.de/~W3446/cop/"

SusanneN exclaims, "Oh, good - for the first time our team wweek4 together in the same chat!!"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "next to COPs and Virtual communities"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, so we have the diagrams, topics (roughly), and online times"

VennyS . o O ( What're you planing )

You hear a quiet popping sound; SRI_161 [guest] has lost its link.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "We're planning our Week 4 COP sessoins"

SusanneN says, "Venny dear, look at your calendar! This is our week 4"

Rif has connected.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I like tha apples/oranges images"

VennyS [:)] grins at SusanneN.

ChristopherMJ says, "Thanks, Vance"

Rif [guest] says, "I am back as Rif"

ChristopherMJ says, "Are the diagrams clear,etc.? I kind of threw the last 2 together"

SusanneN says, "Theoretical aspects of learning in the online community"

SusanneN says, "Oh - hi real Rif"

Rif [guest] says, "Are we looking at the tree"

SusanneN says, "wait - let me have a look"

ChristopherMJ says, "yeah, we can start with the diagrams"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "at http://sites.inka.de/~W3446/cop/cop_orgs_files/sitemap.htm we're hopefully not headed for the Organization stage"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "have to start selling tickets in that case"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "he he"

ChristopherMJ says, "org stage - that's where Nigel's posting comes in"

ChristopherMJ says, "Would you all like to know the angle I'm taking for that"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "yes, and I presume you'll be posting whatever is comign to the list ..."

ChristopherMJ says, "yes,"

ChristopherMJ says, "basically will be task-based vs. learning-based and how orgs are well-suited for task-based stuff"

ChristopherMJ says, "and CoPs for learning -based"

Rif [guest] says, "Is this a linear or cyclic in nature Chris"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok"

ChristopherMJ asks, "the org diagram, Rif?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "can you recap nigel's posting?"

ChristopherMJ says, "sure, got it here"

Rif [guest] says, "yes, starting from Social Group.. etc"

ChristopherMJ says, "I meant it to be only a relationship between different types of organizations"

ChristopherMJ says, "Social group (most informal) to traditional organization (most formal)"

Rif [guest] says, "Would you think we could get rid of the arrows as transitions between the modes at the top ofthe page"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, I also see that we are in the penultimate area"

ChristopherMJ says, "I did not mean it to show development (it can, but not necessarily)"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "also, having read some Wenger, i see this in the perspective of corporate structure"

ChristopherMJ says, "Oh, so the arrows are confusing - OK I can take them out"

Rif [guest] says, "Well,maybe they are not. But I take the arrows as transitions"

SusanneN says, "yes, I have beed trying to see if those arrows make sense"

ChristopherMJ says, "you probably not the only one, Rif"

SusanneN says, "it is very common to put on arrows an a flow diagramme, but here, in this connection, the communication and interaction often goes both ways"

ChristopherMJ asks, "So either 2 way arrows or none?"

You hear a quiet popping sound; SRI_93 [guest] has lost its link.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I see the point, maybe remove the ones at the top"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, will do"

SusanneN says, "that was a diplomatic solution"

ChristopherMJ says, "This is usability testing :-)"

VanceS [catherder_cop] -)

SusanneN says, "It sure is"

ChristopherMJ says, "(getting Nigel's postings) -"

VanceS [catherder_cop] perks up

SusanneN asks, "Chris, when I look at the apple & orange map, unless I knew on beforehand - I might feel a little unsure about the meaning of "distributed CoPs" - do we have a good and brief definition somewhere?"

SusanneN . o O ( think I just have to examine teh tree table to click it out in the open )

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, Sus thanks, good idea"

Rif [guest] asks, "apple and orange map?"

SusanneN says, "HYperstructures are cool, but my innner librarian might love an index page, too"

VanceS [to Rif [guest]]: "right"

ChristopherMJ asks, "index page of terms?"

ChristopherMJ asks, "they're kind of spread out among the diagrams, huh?"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK here is Nigel's first anecdote:"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "that would be good, an index of terms"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "on the first diagram, you hyperlinked the terms"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, because on the apple & orange diagram, I took terms from the other diagrams"

SusanneN asks, "Can you put the anecdote on a note, Chris and then project it?"

ChristopherMJ ..buts he can hyperlink those.

SusanneN says, "Me think I just have to go torhugh the diagrams a few more times"

ChristopherMJ says, "that will take a while to build the index, but will do"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "helps if they're clear, or even define them at the base of the diagram"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, yes, true."

ChristopherMJ says, "trying to keep the navigation relatively linear"

ChristopherMJ says, "but I'll figure something out today"

SusanneN says, "Just go on, I'll look away for five minutes"

ChristopherMJ asks, "Projecting a note: how do you do that?"

ChristopherMJ gets Note_30478 from the vending machine.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "On some of my pages there's a little javascript Back arrow that works like the back button on your browser"

Rif [guest] says, "well, navigation will always be a problem. I think people would figure it out in one way or another"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "always sends the navigator back to the page they've just come from"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, ok"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I mention that because in the first diagram, the definitions link back to that first diagram"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "so if you link to those defs from other diagrams, it would be confusing to be sent back to diagram 1"

Rif [guest] says, "oh I see your point vance"

ChristopherMJ says, "That's what I thought Vance"

ChristopherMJ says, "I'll just copy the pages and link back to each diagram -basta"

ChristopherMJ says, "no prob"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, ready to project Nigel's first anecdote"

ChristopherMJ says, "as a note"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "at the top and bottom of my week 4 portal there's a back button if you want to use that"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, ready for Nigel"

ChristopherMJ says, "great, thanks, Vance"

ChristopherMJ projects anecdote1.

---------------

Anecdote 1 : The university where I did my M.Ed in TESOL was very much into student-centered learning. Fine. We had endless classes (and some of them felt like they would never end) in which the "content" was introduced by student-led discussions. I eventually learned not to take these classes. There are some contexts in which transmission of knowledge is necessary and expected, and cannot be generated through negotiation by inexperienced learners. Plus, if leadership is going to be rotated, you have to have confidence in the leadership skills of everyone in the group, otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time. In a goal-oriented context (getting a univ degree), classes/communities/whatever need goals and they need to reach them.

>From your comments, I'm not sure a CoP is necessarily a good way to do this.

---------------

ChristopherMJ says, "Here he's harping on leadership vs. the chaos of proletariat rule"

arif has connected.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I see Nigel's point but not sure how it applies to CoP where we are all experts and here expressly to learn from each other"

ChristopherMJ says, "first: dichotomy of expert and novices - no one in between"

ChristopherMJ says, "2nd: one expert has the cards"

arif [guest] says, "where is Nigel's statement"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "Chris project again"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, projectiong"

arif [guest] says, "lines are terrible here, I am often kicked out"

ChristopherMJ projects anecdote1.

---------------

Anecdote 1 : The university where I did my M.Ed in TESOL was very much into student-centered learning. Fine. We had endless classes (and some of them felt like they would never end) in which the "content" was introduced by student-led discussions. I eventually learned not to take these classes. There are some contexts in which transmission of knowledge is necessary and expected, and cannot be generated through negotiation by inexperienced learners. Plus, if leadership is going to be rotated, you have to have confidence in the leadership skills of everyone in the group, otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time. In a goal-oriented context (getting a univ degree), classes/communities/whatever need goals and they need to reach them.

>From your comments, I'm not sure a CoP is necessarily a good way to do this.

---------------

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "so, Chris mentioned dichotomy of expert / novice, no one in between"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and expert has the cards (leads the group, I guess you mean)"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "but here we acknowledge that expert in one thing is novice in another"

arif [guest] says, "THis sounds more like an apprenticeship model rather than expert novice dichotomy to me"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and many in betweens"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and no one holds all the cards"

ChristopherMJ says, "You got it Vance"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "i've often argued against applying 'traditional edu paradigms' to online learning"

ChristopherMJ says, "Plus, I see "getting a degree" as task oriented and (ironically) not necessarily learning oriented"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and claimed the two are incompatible"

arif [guest] says, "exactly Vance"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "exactly Chris"

arif [guest] says, "maybe thatwould be an example to show how CoP s differ from traditional one."

SusanneN looks is back, scrolling and reading.

ChristopherMJ says, "Anyway, that's the angle I would like to take - Anecdote2 is similar"

ChristopherMJ is getting Anecdote 2

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "yes, so a posting on the paradigm shift needed to accommodate CoPs in an education as learning model as apposed to education as crossing a goal"

ChristopherMJ says, "right"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and how CoPs can inform a creation of such a paradigm"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, I have a hard core example as a third one - Xerox"

VanceS [catherder_cop] likes hard core

ChristopherMJ says, "LOL"

arif [guest] asks, "means?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] looks around to see if there are any minors present

You hear a quiet popping sound; SRI_148 [guest] has lost its link.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "uh oh, there went one"

SusanneN [is back, scrolling and reading] is looking quite soft core today

arif [guest] says, "that was my previous identity Vance"

ChristopherMJ asks, "So the hard core question is "Why would Xerox pay Etienne Wenger boatloads of money to do research on CoPs?"

SusanneN says, "yeah"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "hmmmm"

SusanneN asks, "why diod xwrox invest so much moeny in developing the paperless community?"

arif [guest] asks, "hmm, can we also think of E-Erope project as one of those attempts?"

SusanneN says, "Xerow did some of the most advanced research at the time"

SusanneN says, "the people at"

ChristopherMJ says, "I'll keep you all in suspense while I get Nigel's 2nd anecdote"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "because they thought it would advance their concept of knowledge management?"

ChristopherMJ says, "Sus is on the right track"

ChristopherMJ asks, "OK, here's a hint. What did Xerox do with all of their advance research (looking at the practical side)?"

SusanneN says, "one researcher from Xerox explained that they feared the age of post Xexoring and wanted th get hands on new technologies"

ChristopherMJ gets Note_30479 from the vending machine.

SusanneN says, "I met one, Wendy mackay, she has been doing research for Xerox on making digital paper strips"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "don't know ..."

ChristopherMJ says, "wow, this note thing is cool, 1st time I've done it"

ChristopherMJ says, "Well, Xerox invented the mouse and GUI and Apple and Microsoft made all of the money"

SusanneN says, "It'is actually a very good story -they wanted to know how flight leaders do their work, using paper stips for all their very important planning of airport and route making, as a true community of practice"

arif [guest] asks, "How would you argue against the fact that the use paper has been increased as parallel to the developments in the computertech?"

ChristopherMJ ..becauses the management at Xerox did not pay attention to the CoPs in the company.

SusanneN exclaims, "Rif in the eighities, Xerox could not be sure this would happen!"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I'm not following"

SusanneN says, "everyone knows all these futursitinc scenarios with the paperless community"

ChristopherMJ says, "2 stories going on here simultaneously"

SusanneN says, "juts look at Michael who now tell us about his wsork place where they are obliged to read email tro get the needed information"

SusanneN says, "sorry"

ChristopherMJ says, "no prob"

SusanneN says, "that's how good discussions are sometimes, f2f as well"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, true"

SusanneN asks, "but shall we get back to NIgel's anecdotes?"

arif [guest] says, "Vance, Xerox is being investing a lot to the developments in paperless community, but the use of paper is incersing. I was questioning this dillema"

arif [guest] says, "right, is it ready Chris"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, granted ..."

SusanneN says, "Rif, for xerox, this is a double advantege, thei do have stocks in paper produltion as well"

ChristopherMJ says, "My story was that Xerox gave away its mouse/GUI tech and did not capitalize on it because the leaders of the company did not recognize it"

SusanneN says, "ok :-)"

ChristopherMJ says, "The technology was developed in CoPs"

ChristopherMJ says, "not top-down"

arif [guest] says, "I liked this dicsuccion, it is fun :*)"

SusanneN says, "there are lots and lots of corporate narratives around the Xerox research buiness"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "so they are paying Wenger to rectify this problem?"

ChristopherMJ says, "After that, Wenger was financed to do research"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, Vance"

SusanneN says, "true"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "so they are committed to it in a positive sense then?"

arif [guest] exclaims, "business espionage!"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, did not want the mouse to get away again :-)"

arif [guest] says, "yeap"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "is this coming somehow back to Nigel's postings?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "or to paradigm shift as it relates to education?"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, I see Nigel's postings as raining on the ideologicla parade and this is something people can sink their teeth into (Xerox losing money)"

ChristopherMJ asks, "see what I mean?"

ChristopherMJ says, "CoPs (with all the cool stuff like rotating expertise) as being "practical""

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, how to approach this .. a question to the group ..."

ChristopherMJ says, "That's one way to do it - open to suggestions"

arif [guest] says, "That mi"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "how does the paradigm suggested in Nigel's posting need to be changed to accommodate CoPs?"

ChristopherMJ says, "Here is Nigel's 2nd posting (similar to the 1st)"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "what's wrong with the paradigm that would accommodate learning in an education setting more on the lines of Webheads and CoPs"

ChristopherMJ projects Anecdote 2.

---------------

Anecdote 2 : In my other life, I co-founded a student theatre group. Our initial ethos was rather CoP-like, a "company of players" without hierarchy (other than a director and producer for each play), no committees, everything decided by majority vote, etc etc. This worked very well for about six months when there were 20 company members and the same two people (the 2 co-founder) were either producing or directing. However, as the company grew, it became clear that "chaos navigation" was going to tear the group apart, and I persuaded the company to create one elected leadership position (a sort of chairman). And this has worked rather nicely. Idealism should always, in my opinion, give way quickly to realism.

---------------

SusanneN reads and chews

ChristopherMJ says, "Again: task orientation vs. learning orientation"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "This is a classic case of process vs product"

SusanneN says, "I need to print all this out to have a clear view, on paper"

ChristopherMJ says, "bingo"

ChristopherMJ says, "Here is the CoP angle: 2 people as directors or producers"

arif [guest] says, "I think there is more like a cultural issue going on here, too"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and small groups vs large (and growing) ones"

SusanneN says, "It is interesting how he want to point out leaders"

ChristopherMJ asks, "Would the actors themselves want to become producers/directors?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and how the addition of even ONE additional member can change group dynamics"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, true"

You hear a quiet popping sound; SusanneN has lost her link.

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "sometimes leaders emerge from such groups"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes"

arif [guest] says, "Change is more culturally oriented than task or process orinted I think"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "culture is part of it, esp in multinational groups (multicultural)"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, but again, it's a polarized situations actors on one end and directors/producers on the other"

SusanneN has connected.

SusanneN says, "Sorry, I'm back"

arif [guest] says, "My friend is conducting an extensive research on group dynamics and all she finds is that personal refections from cultural orientation leads the community either to chaos or to the profit"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "another good question, two perhaps ..."

arif [guest] says, "yes, maybe we can take the process as granted to observe what is going on. as in chaos theory, chaos would lead to an order in itself"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "Do groups function best with loose or define hierarchical structures?"

ChristopherMJ says, "or...."

ChristopherMJ asks, "Can you have both?"

arif [guest] says, "Maybe we just do not want to wait what would come next"

ChristopherMJ says, "For example, you can have task orientation with the goal of learning"

SusanneN says, "Sorry, I lost sight of everything said, has to retrieve my chatlog in mail"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "or HOW can groups function (deliver a product) with a loose hierarchical structure"

ChristopherMJ says, "but the task orientation is temporary"

arif [guest] says, "we are not patient enough I mean. So having the both might be the answer"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "a CoP is almost by def a group with a loose structure, yeah?"

arif [guest] says, "here kicks in the traditional education... you have a certain period of time to make everything be ready

in a certain period of time"

ChristopherMJ asks, "you do a project and regroup in a different constellation for the next one (different leadership, etc.) and have relective periods in between. How about that?"

SusanneN says, "I think one important thing is how the initiator(s) hand over some of the ownership and responsibility as soon as participants are ready to manage things and show what they have learned"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "a hierarchical structure implies top down (you might lose the mouse)"

ChristopherMJ exclaims, "exactly, Vance!"

VennyS [:)] is back but has to leave as my daughters are back for dinner. I hope to join Christopher's birthday meeting latter

SusanneN says, "I'm getting so amazed when we hear from a boundary member like Andy..."

arif [guest] asks, "you assume reflection to happen Chris, right?"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and responding to your last posting (chris) a Do at the begining and a ? at the end, for presentation to the group"

ChristopherMJ says, "thanks, Vance (Thrusday)"

ChristopherMJ [to Arif [guest]]: "It might not happen, but it is cool when it does"

SusanneN says, "who is telling us he has saves all our postings and links and is trying hard to make his own patterns, he is the type of guy who breaks out only when he feel ready to stand up and speak"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "there are so many like that, and such Boundary members can thrive only in a CoP"

ChristopherMJ [to VanceS]: "you lost me on the last sentence"

SusanneN . o O ( lost the first words in that sentence trying again )

arif [guest] says, "me2"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "in a product oriented group they are out from the word go"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, product oriented groups are good for a defined task"

SusanneN says, "I came to think of boundary members like Andy - who is telling us he has saves all our postings and links and is trying hard to make his own patterns, he is the type of guy who breaks out only when he feel ready to stand up and speak"

ChristopherMJ says, "but not for learning or advancing a field"

VanceS [to Chris]: "DO you do a project and regroup in a different constellation for the next one (different leadership, etc.) and have relective periods in between?"

ChristopherMJ asks, "Me personally?"

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, I try :-)"

arif [guest] says, "VAnce is catherder_cop or CoP? thatis funny"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "a theatre production is a defined task"

VanceS . o O ( Well spotted, Rif )

ChristopherMJ says, "Yes, putting on the play is a defined task"

ChristopherMJ says, "but learning how to direct or explore or invent different types of theatre is a learning task"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "also has a deadline, maybe deadline has s.t. to do with this"

SusanneN . o O ( unless we're into the improvised drama genre )

SusanneN says, "BUt you'"

arif [guest] says, "as posted earlier: , "here kicks in the traditional education... you have a certain"

arif [guest] says, "period of time to make everything be ready in a certain period"

arif [guest] says, "of time""

SusanneN says, "you're right, the theatre is a good palce to begin for understanding what a hierarchical community is like"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "right, rif"

ChristopherMJ says, "So if your group exists to put on plays, you have one or two directors, and everyone else is happy acting; then you don't need a CoP"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "maybe a CoP can come up with an idea for a play, but to actually get the play on stage let's say 3 weeks from now ..."

ChristopherMJ says, "but if the actors want to learn to become directors, try it out themselves, explore different theatre styles, etc."

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "on the other hand, this group will be presenting a colloquium at TeSOL in March and will accomplish that goal quite well as a CoP"

SusanneN says, "you know - there is front stage and back stage"

ChristopherMJ says, "Forming a task based group in a CoP to get the play on would work, but then there would be regrouping for the next learning experience"

arif [guest] says, "I think we have a sound rationale to differentiate the difference between traditonal education and CoP"

arif [guest] says, "exactly Chris"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "But then each member of the CoP has his/her own instrinsic and instrumental motivation to do his/her part"

arif [guest] says, "well, I think we need to addaffective factors to the theory of CoP"

ChristopherMJ says, "exactly, Vance - a sort of virtual "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours""

SusanneN says, "true Vance, this conference presentation business is a task each time we're commited to do something for others, in public - and we do need to be well prepared"

SusanneN says, "affective factors, Rif, expand please if you can :-)"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "so cops lend themselves to tasks where each member has a big stake in the production"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, the payoff is what you learn"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "and that can overlap into industry etc as illustrated in CJ's charts"

arif [guest] says, "as motivation and other factors kick in"

SusanneN says, "I was thinking of a new blog called blogscratching strageties"

ChristopherMJ says, "it's a big deal industry"

SusanneN says, "lol"

VanceS [catherder_cop] looks around for running clothes

ChristopherMJ asks, "so...Should we go from that angle in EVONLINE-2002 group?"

arif [guest] says, "all personal and emotional factors could be counted as affective factors here. Regardless of the fact that it is task or process oriented"

ChristopherMJ says, "yes, Rif"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I want to achieve two products today"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "one is some clear direction on the portal page"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "the other is a question to start the discussion rolling"

SusanneN says, "build more on these questions"

ChristopherMJ asks, "OK, should I use the anecdotes to start the discussion rolling?"

SusanneN says, "I've got a lot of inspiration to go from these questions"

ChristopherMJ says, "plus the Xerox story"

SusanneN exclaims, "Yes, do!"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I think that's an excellent idea Chris"

arif [guest] asks, "How it differs from traditional education might the nextone maybe?"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, will get it up by 13:00 GMT"

SusanneN says, "wa can add our chatlog, it was a fine discussion"

ChristopherMJ says, "good idea, Rif"

VanceS [catherder_cop] asks, "I could put that on the Internet. Would that be ok, or anything here confidential?"

arif [guest] says, "we can extend the discussion of task vs process orientedness as well as time constraints in it"

SusanneN says, "I plan to be here tonight if someone want to discuss"

SusanneN says, "nothing private I think"

SusanneN says, "nothing more that usual , at least"

ChristopherMJ says, "I think we concentrated on the issues"

arif [guest] says, "sure thing we are a blue ribbon CoP"

SusanneN am so used to expose all kids of multilog on the net

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "I think it's healthy ... also healthy to ask first"

ChristopherMJ says, "Good point, Vance"

arif [guest] exclaims, "well taken!"

SusanneN asks, "I am digging deeper into the question of traditionla versus CoPs learning, Rif, how about you?"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, so that will be the 2nd discussion topic...."

SusanneN exclaims, "good manners for ethical posting!"

ChristopherMJ says, "traditional vs. CoPs"

arif [guest] says, "I was thinking the similar topic Sus"

SusanneN says, "I had go go all the way back to newborn language learning ain a sociocultural contetx :-)"

SusanneN says, "let us continue the multilog in the open mail list"

arif [guest] says, "Maybe I can just play the devil s advocate in discussions"

ChristopherMJ says, "Sure, Rif, that's OK"

SusanneN says, "oh yes, i hate to be contradicted :-))"

SusanneN says, "you can have your truth, and I can have mine"

arif [guest] says, "I can throw out some provoking questions"

SusanneN exclaims, "I'm sure you can!"

arif [guest] exclaims, "I take it as compliment!"

SusanneN says, "Disagreements are funnier the more you actually KNOW about a topic"

SusanneN scratches Rif on his back

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, I have to run and meet someone"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "but I'll leave this on so the rest of the discusssoin will be emailed to me"

ChristopherMJ [to VanceS]: "(looking at the portal) page - I guess we can change the discussion topics to the order we agreed on here"

SusanneN says, "Great to be with teh whole team this time"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, Vance. I will be here till 12 GMT"

SusanneN says, "the portal page is not static, I suppose"

arif [guest] says, ",,o by,e,"

arif [guest] says, ","

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "yeah, if you want to reiterate those to be clear, taht might help"

ChristopherMJ says, "Have a great hiking trip"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "otherwise I'll figure something out"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, will do"

SusanneN says, "I think I will read thorugh the chatlog, and then return to see how much I missed"

arif [guest] says, "Ok nice talking with you guys"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK, Rif, bye"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "yeah if someone wants to email me some points I'll redo the page in about 6 hours"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "nice talking to you Rif"

ChristopherMJ says, "OK"

You hear a quiet popping sound; SRI_5 [guest] has lost its link.

SusanneN says, "Enjoy the hiking, and remeber to report back how it was -to tighten those friendly and affective bonds"

VanceS [catherder_cop] says, "ok, I'll go 'away' now"

ChristopherMJ says, "bye, Vance"

SusanneN hugs Vance in his running dress

SusanneN sends vance away

VanceS [catherder_cop] hugs ChristopherMJ, VennyS [:)], and SusanneN.

VanceS looks away.

SusanneN says, "In 6 hours, nice deadline"

ChristopherMJ says, "Sus, my office hours here are for another 40 minutes or so, then I'll be logging off"

ChristopherMJ says, "I am going to get the next posting ready"

ChristopherMJ says, "for the Yahoo group"

You hear a quiet popping sound; VanceS [away] has lost his link.

Disconnected from TAPPED IN on Mon Feb 10 03:32:04 2003 PST.